Early Geezer bass tone

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Re: Early Geezer bass tone

Postby Damocles74 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:05 am

I had the vintage '62 fender split coil pups put in, new pots and truss rod straightened.
The pup really does have a great vintage tone to it! It's not exactly Geezer, it sounds more like Glenn Cornick - Beggar's Farm :jam:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygzdDPgOhKc
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Re: Early Geezer bass tone

Postby Psycho Bass Guy on Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:19 pm

worldoftone wrote:SVT ain't gonna work for vintage Geezer. Laney Supergroups or metal panel super basses will get you into that zone. Add some 4 x 12s with 55hz Celestions.

- WOT


The SVT will fill out the bottom that Geezer's DI'ed tracks had that simply using a Supergroup or Superbass would lose and it can still cop their midrange. The SVT isn't the be-all/end-all, but for any decent vintage bass tone at stage volume, it's about the only option that has any versatility at all, and it's a lot louder and cheaper.
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Re: Early Geezer bass tone

Postby Damocles74 on Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:47 pm

Psycho Bass Guy wrote:
worldoftone wrote:SVT ain't gonna work for vintage Geezer. Laney Supergroups or metal panel super basses will get you into that zone. Add some 4 x 12s with 55hz Celestions.

- WOT


The SVT will fill out the bottom that Geezer's DI'ed tracks had that simply using a Supergroup or Superbass would lose and it can still cop their midrange. The SVT isn't the be-all/end-all, but for any decent vintage bass tone at stage volume, it's about the only option that has any versatility at all, and it's a lot louder and cheaper.



How do you get LOUD, but stay clean with out (wolfed out) overdriving?
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Re: Early Geezer bass tone

Postby Psycho Bass Guy on Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:15 am

A healthy SVT that actually makes 300 clean watts will knock your guts around with good cabs, and when overdriven they don't get wolfy or hollow sounding; they get growly and punchier. A vintage SVT is extremely capable of high volume, BUT it requires a good set of tubes biased for maximum clean output. Your model SVT may not be capable of it. The SVT VR may be a copy of the original's circuit, but the build quality is much cheaper. Given Loud Tech's policy of building as cheaply as possible, you can be sure that every possible corner was cut.

The easiest solution is simply to use more speakers. Speaker surface area goes a lot more towards volume than wattage. However, it sounds like you amp has its gain structure jacked up and fuzzes out too early. A good tech who is up the challenge of dealing with the byzantine assembly of the VR could possibly tweak the circuit for more clean power and better managed gain, but that is assuming that Loud did not alter the specs on the transformers after the design process. The VR's designer who woked hard to make it actually sound and perform like the original was laid off before their production began.

Assuming they are still comparable to the vintage SVT, you could try a few things like swapping the 12AU7 driver tubes with vintage correct 12BH7's. That would at least give cleaner driver stage capability, but be warned that the BH's draw twice the heater current and if Loud cheaped-out on the filament tranny, you could damage your amp.
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Re: Early Geezer bass tone

Postby Damocles74 on Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:48 pm

"12AU7 driver tubes with vintage correct 12BH7's."
That's what I wanted to know, thanx.

The last piece of the puzzle: cabs. You all keep saying 4x12's and when I go back and look at live footage (youtube) of Nick Simper, Leo Lyons, Glenn Cornick, Michael Friis et al they all seem to be using very thin cabs for bass..and not even vented!
Image

I don't understand that at all?
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Re: Early Geezer bass tone

Postby Psycho Bass Guy on Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:45 am

The 4x12 cabs that were used for classic bass tones were simple full range affairs and are nothing like a modern cube with high powered drivers and horns. The big "secret" among bass cabs that has somehow been lost is that you don't need a huge ported cab to get good or deep bass tone. Especially with a tube amp, a good sealed cabinet will give you tons of volume and punch with plenty of low end. In most bass forums (cough...Talkbass) there's a lot of BS about cabs, amps, good tone and how to get it. Most of the self proclaimed "experts" doling out advice are paid shills or syncophantic losers kissing ass to manufacturers and each other who have very little experience with the ideas they dissmiss and know even less about the science behind them.

Ported cabs are made for high wattage solid state rigs and use high excursion drivers that are meant as efficient subwoofers across a narrow band of low frequencies at the expense of mids and highs. Solid low midrange punch is usually the first casualty, followed by closely by natural sounding upper midrange articulation and very limited high frequency response which then requires some sort of separate high frequency driver, be it a horn or tweeter. Old sealed cabs that used full-range drivers sound more natural and are more phase coherent, resulting in punchier sound that cuts through like nobody's business.
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Re: Early Geezer bass tone

Postby Psycho Bass Guy on Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:09 am

BTW, I want to reiterate that I sincerely doubt that even if it doesn't damage your SVT VR, swapping 12AU7's for 12BH7's isn't going to solve your problem. IF the SVT VR you have is actually true to the vintage SVT specs, 12BH7's will give you better headroom and peak power, but will not solve your overall gain structure problems. An SVT needs to be tuned up and dialed in properly and requires good quality output tubes and careful biasing. Some modern 6550's simply are not capable of being run to full output in an SVT without melting. Unless you verify at least 34 volts into a 4 ohm load at 40 Hz, you're not hearing what an SVT is supposed to sound like.
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Re: Early Geezer bass tone

Postby Damocles74 on Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:10 pm

^ that's pretty enlightening; never thought of it that way before.

Maybe I'm headed in the right direction w/ my 2-2x12" 1973 Earth sealed cabs then?
Took out the old woofers..
Image

And loaded Eminence Delta's (wired in-series)..
Image
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Re: Early Geezer bass tone

Postby Psycho Bass Guy on Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:14 am

That's probably a good step in the right direction. The SVT 8x10 is actually just four connected 2x10's. Post close up pics of the original drivers' magnet codes in case some guitar players might want them. Earth was a low-rent ripoff of Peavey, and old Peavey drivers tend to have very little bottom and a LOT of high mids. The only caveat I can think of is that the Eminence Delta's may not like that small of a selaed cab. Even though they can work in sealed cabs, they're still modern drivers with relatively low efficiency.

If they don't work out, look into Weber; they've got TONS of different flavors of vintage-themed 12's. Another plus is that you can get them in 16 ohms. Parallel four of them and you've got a four ohm load. Parallel connected drivers work and sound better for bass because they will have the same voltage drop, current and phase response. When you start doing series and series/parallel connections, it screws with the phase and frequency response of drivers.
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Re: Early Geezer bass tone

Postby Damocles74 on Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:06 pm

Yeah, Earth didn't even hire any engineers, only techs to assemble their stuff (I have a plush-roll Earth amp as well).Image

I threw those old drivers out..
Image

Image

Didn't think they were worth anything.

The in-series vs. parallel thing still confuses me a little (the SVT has two 4 ohm inputs in the back) as it relates to ohm load, and I never thought to invest in vintage (style) drivers. Thanx for all the input; most people rely on eq's and crossovers and such for their tone, I'd like to capture the authenticity of t
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Re: Early Geezer bass tone

Postby Damocles74 on Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:08 pm

....hat lost era where the bass is actually heard in the mix.
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Re: Early Geezer bass tone

Postby Psycho Bass Guy on Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:34 am

Damocles74 wrote: I threw those old drivers out.. Didn't think they were worth anything.


Unless space is a premium for you, don't throw them out. At the very least you could take them down to local music store. Even if they don't want to buy them, you could give them to someone who could use them.

The in-series vs. parallel thing still confuses me a little (the SVT has two 4 ohm inputs in the back) as it relates to ohm load,


Be sure your impedance selector is set to 4 ohms. If it's set wrong, it's dangerous to your amp (and it will sound bad). Also, NEVER run just one of your cabs (8 ohms) by itself. There are legions of idiots who will tell you it's OK, including Ampeg's Customer Service. They're wrong. What confuses you about series vs parallel connections?
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Re: Early Geezer bass tone

Postby Damocles74 on Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:02 am

^^^ I think you're right about the (lost) cabinet philosophy of yester year.
This Warhorse video proves it, check out Nick Simper's cabs in the background, his tone is amazing!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSOnQi56m8s&feature=related
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