Spare mini BB OT

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Spare mini BB OT

Postby LD50 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:37 pm

All bleeding stops.......eventually.
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Re: Spare mini BB OT

Postby Clockdogg on Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:17 pm

Actually, this is NOT the same type of transformer as used in the early pinstripe 18 watters. Never has been and never will be.

The genuine item should look like this:

Image
Image

Running man logo, "EL 84" OUTPUT TRANS lettering, slottet laminations.

The TX in the link - albeit being a genuine RS item - is a later version and of different maufacture.

The fact that people(no offence Neil :D ) keep saying, pretending and actually believing this to be the real deal still doesn't make it true!

Same story with the Deluxe OTs in the 45s. The ONLY genuine versions used by Marshall were the ones with the paper labels! Period.

Like this:

Image

This has also been verified by Ken Underwood himself. And he of all people should know:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=86352&start=120

The versions with the white screening (running man logo or RS logo like below) are a similar yet different product altogether. The biggest difference probably being single wound vs. multiple wound; among others.

Image

So, if your 'all stock' genuine 63/64 45 came with an OT of the srceened label variety...guess what!?!

IT'S EITHER A REPLACEMENT OR YOU GOT S C R E W E D!!!

Same issue with this puppy: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=101789&start=15

Although very liklely to be a genuine prototype from the Marshall stable - the OT, however - is not (any more)! Also take a careful look at the terminals for the speaker wires...fresh and shiny solder...need I say more..

This chassis may have its place in Marshall history...but it has been messed with/altered. 120ma on the HT line may be another reason this particular example remained a prototype. The later production models featured a more appropriate 150ma. And btw...I was 2nd highest on this one.. 8)

Since I always thought this place was (at least to some degree) about accuracy and historical correctness I just had to get this off my chest.

Sadly, I keep seeing this misbelief again and again and again...whether it be on ebay, forums or elsewhere. :(

Maybe someone could make this a sticky???

:cheers:
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Re: Spare mini BB OT

Postby LD50 on Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:10 pm

I posted it as a spare - not as a repro exact.

They sound pretty good to me - find another that sounds better.

I know that IG in Germany shows pictures of the differences. We have asked a number of times on this forum whether the differences in construction affect tone and no-one has been able to say when the early 60s paper label Deluxes gave way to the etched labels (someone suggested 64/65 which is still within the Marshall time line) although I agree begs the question re the prototype one we see in your link :wink:
All bleeding stops.......eventually.
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Re: Spare mini BB OT

Postby Clockdogg on Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:51 pm

LD50 wrote:I posted it as a spare - not as a repro exact.


In that case I am happy (and relieved) to exclude you from my petite rant. :D
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Re: Spare mini BB OT

Postby Clanger on Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:36 am

Clockdogg wrote:
LD50 wrote:I posted it as a spare - not as a repro exact.


In that case I am happy (and relieved) to exclude you from my petite rant. :D


Yes, you're coming on a bit strong there, particularly over the etched label Deluxe OPT. You're the first to claim that it is not correct for the 64-65 period. I beleive Ken was done with Marshall by then and I'll wager you weren't there either, so maybe reel it in a bit there eh?
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Re: Spare mini BB OT

Postby Ned B on Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:52 am

Well it is an intiguing debate about the RS OT used in the early 45s. I would like to see more input on the thesis that only one variety was used during that couple of years. It was a short period, so maybe not a far fetched notion.
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Re: Spare mini BB OT

Postby Clockdogg on Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:07 am

Clanger wrote:You're the first to claim that it is not correct for the 64-65 period.


Well, actually this is what I said:

Clockdogg wrote:So, if your 'all stock' genuine 63/64 45 came with an OT of the srceened label variety...


But yes, why not! Since you put it out there anyway I might as well extend my (maybe provocative) thesis over the whole range of 45s, including 1965.

Bring on some pictures of a legit 45 with a screened label DLX OT and I will happily stand corrected.

If they exist they must be out there somewhere. So, if anyone on here owns an example of the above variety - please show them to us!

Personally, I've never seen a single one - which, of course - doesn't prove püp...and yes Clanger, you're right, neither was I standing there in the Marshall stable back in the day...

However, I did see quite a few examples where the original OTs had been (obviously) replaced with the later screened label OTs.

(And just to make it crystal clear - I'm not talking about tonal qualities here but historical correctness solely)

Out of curiosity I once screened both databases, Amp Archives as well as Marstran and checked all the 45s for their OTs (at least the ones that displayed gut shots).

Of ALL examples up there only two featured the later OT:

http://marstran.com/Gold%20Block%201070.htm

http://www.amparchives.com/album/Marshall/JTM%2045%20Series%201962-1966/1985%20JTM%2045%20PA/65%201985%20JTM%2045%20PA%2045W%20SN%201070/slides/DSC00070.html (same amp)

http://www.amparchives.com/album/Marshall/JTM%2045%20Series%201962-1966/JTM%2045/63-64%20JTM%2045%20Coffin%20Badge/slides/3.html

Yet, both examples display a quite peculiar set of features that make me strongly doubt their originality. The latter even worse than the former.
(side note: when this amp was on ebay in March 2010 I contacted the seller(s) in the most objective way pointing out the amp may have originality issues. All I got for a reply was something in the way of "...whatever.") Ignorance and greed...a match made in heaven...or should I say hell?! :ick:

Of course, the above databases are not representative of the whole entity of 45s, yet I feel this at least supports my thesis to some degree.

So let's scrutinize!

Ned B wrote:Well it is an intiguing debate about the RS OT used in the early 45s. I would like to see more input on the thesis that only one variety was used during that couple of years.


Cosmetically, I know of at least two different varieties. The one with the green bell covers and brownish terminal board as found in some very early 45s and the more common one with the grey hammerite bell covers and the blackish terminal board. Paper labels on both. If memory serves correct differences are cosmetical only.

I could post some comparison pics if anyone is interested. But please give it some time as I cannot visit here on a daily basis...unfortunately.

Hope I didn't step on anyone's toes this time. :wink:
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Re: Spare mini BB OT

Postby Clanger on Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:29 pm

A bit more reasoned and thoughtful this time, jolly good.

So you found two that have the etched/screen printed base. So the debate is over whether they are original or not. the trouble is, who knows?

Maybe someone with a comprehensive picture database could chime in.

Now be aware there are at least two style of non-label black base. Your shot is of probably a seventies one, with the seventies RS boxed logo. that would definitely be wrong for a 60's marshall. Now look the the picture posted by Homer in the old thread from 2009, see the running man RS logo there instead? Now somewhere I think in that old thread is my quote about my Nov/Dec 1964 issue of the RS catalogue? This shows (albeit indistinctly) a base shot of an RS Deluxe and it does not have a label on it!

Ultimately it is a question of what kind of stock levels Marshall kept of the old style paper label, when the printed style came in (late '64 by my reckoning) and when in '65 the Drake OPT came in.

The above in a nutshell is why I have a problem with a blanket statement that a 'JTM45 with an etched label is a wrong 'un.
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Re: Spare mini BB OT

Postby Ned B on Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:03 am

Let me throw this out there that Drake started supplying transfers to Marshall September of '64. I found that the Drake inception dates seemed to correspond closely to when used by Marshall like the 1203-80 & 1202-119 being from Feb. of '67. Which fits in with the transitional last aluminums and black flag Marshall timeline. I doubt RS were being ordered once the Drakes came in. It might be safe to say that we are talking about a period of less than 2 years that the OTs in question were used. Does anyone know the actual manufacturer? Was the design RS's and just contracted out?
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Re: Spare mini BB OT

Postby Clanger on Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:41 am

They were likely made by R. F. Gilson of Wimbledon.

There's not too much info about on them, but in the fifties they were often mentioned on component lists on hi-fi kits as alternatives to Parmeko, Partridge and so on.

A lot of RS stuff was just proprietary stuff rebranded with their logo as is normal in the electronics supply business. Very unlikely the original spec was laid down by RS, however as time went on they would likely stipulate that the original spec was adhered to (or only changed on approval) so as to guarantee continuity of offering.
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Re: Spare mini BB OT

Postby Clanger on Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:21 pm

Just to illustrate my previous post, look at the attachment below and on page 36 is an underside view of the RS OPT's ancestor.

Unfortunately the article doesn't seem to specify the make, but lists a choice (page 31), of which it can be said that it is definitely not a partridge P series , cos I know they didn't look like that ( I have one in front of me here).

http://www.sowter.co.uk/schematics/Mullard%205-20.pdf
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Re: Spare mini BB OT

Postby Banker on Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:49 pm

I'm late to this thread, by some five years or so, but I wanted to correct the OP's assersion on Marshall 18W output transformers in case there is any confusion.

While he's correct that the majority of the 18's (and early 20's) used the running man EL84, Marshall also used the Heavy Duty OT quite liberally. Indeed, towards the end of 18w production in late 67 or early 68, they used an altogether different (non RS) transformer, the origin of which I'm yet to identify. Curiously, the amp I have with this late transformer (and yes, it's real) is probably the best sounding of the lot. It's very late indeed, and came stock with solid state rectification via a pair of diodes.

:cheers:
When only pinstripe will do.
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