Can you duplicate Claptons cream tone with modern materials?

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Can you duplicate Claptons cream tone with modern materials?

Postby parkhead on Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:38 pm

Ever noticed The Clapton Tone guys are just as obsessive as the Van Halen tone guys

After all of the fantastic debate that has gone on here on the subject of Claptone
I figured a good way to resolve some of these issues was to try and be as scientific as possible in the approach to the problem

Here are the parameters of the experiment...

Using mostly new materials some of them technically, wrong build an amp that has the overtones and bark of
an amp driven by a rangemaster without using a rangemaster

For example the amp chassis used for the experiment is a late 70s traynor with good but incorrect Iron.
New readily available mallory 150 caps were used, other than the iron and the basic wiring most of the stages were purpose built to JTM45 spec with new parts

Three additional factors were taken into account

Paf pickups, were a huge part of the equation, so instead I have used Motor City Blackbelts in a newish les paul
since the point of the exercise is to be able to use modern materials
I could have borrowed a buddys PAF guitar but that would ruin the duplication challenge

Based on the Hendrix Dickenson JTM45 100 I did not discount the concept of factory mods or prototype concepts from the search for the
correct electronics ... any mods should be logical and would likely later appear in regular production marshalls
like the Hendrix slope resistor treble cap change

Based on all the gut shot JTM45 circuit data I could compile I also tested almost every combination of + or - 20%
part values through the circuit as well as all the circuits, bass, lead, organ, pa
I used a pa circuit

Here is the final amp, played with a Les paul and a patch cable through a modern marshall cab

The les paul is a 1960 classic with 500k pots vintage wiring, mojo paper in oil caps, and a gotoh aluminum tailpiece
new wood with correct material parts .

Let me know what you think, apologies in advance for my crappy playing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn_8Y7tLJf8


p
Last edited by parkhead on Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can you duplicate Claptons cream tone with modern materials

Postby Peteyvee on Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:48 pm

Sounds pretty close to me, even on crappy PC speakers. Those pickups are the schnizzle! What are they wound to?
"The problem with kids today is that their hair's too short and their music isn't loud enough." -Peteyvee
"It's not the notes you play, it's the notes you don't play." -Miles Davis
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Re: Can you duplicate Claptons cream tone with modern materials

Postby Dai on Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:22 am

parkhead wrote:apologies in advance for my crappy playing


:lol: holy self-deprecation!

sounds good. Really nice nuanced playing (vibrato, dynamics, etc.) but wonder what it would sound like with similar sort of recording equipment that was used on EC's recording (to my ear it sounds like different sort of equipment). One thought that came to mind is that that was how EC might have sounded recorded on some modern equipment (camcorder or whatever).
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Re: Can you duplicate Claptons cream tone with modern materials

Postby parkhead on Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:09 pm

The "recorder" is a cannon powershot sd1100. (now discontinued & the replacemnt sd1200 does not record audio well!)

The only "technique" involved in the recording is the cabinet is facing 180 degrees from the lens/mic on purpose so that I capture the slap
of the room as the sound "comes back"

I always heard two things in the Mayall recordings;
#1 clapton was mic'ed from a distance or at least far enough to catch the slap from a hard surface.
#2 those guys recorded as an ensemble so the B3 and drums couldn't be drowned out by a 120 db marshall.. the amp was struggling to be loud.

Since I've discovered using the cannon as a handheld recorder, I've recorded all sorts of buddies bands live at clubs and
the magic live performance is the the "missing thing in modern technology" that makes stuff automatically sound stale.

IMHO Protools is the work of the devil ...

I have been hearing stories from my contacts about a certain Disney backed boy band in town and recording ... apparently "fix it in the mix" is business as ususal.
Vocals by auto tune, rhythm section by quantize

As I woke up this morning I was treated to the Pro Tools remastered version of Rock and Roll all night by kiss... when you hear it on the radio listen
the drums are fixed, they no longer drag the beat and the turn arounds have been fixed so that the guitars all nail the 1 instead of coming in like the stones,
with a little bit of time between the attacks. IMHO fixing the guitars destroyed the power of those intros. If you listen to the who, the stones and al lot of the great British bands in their prime they actually worked on making the downbeat more powerful by anticipating the 1.

p
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Re: Can you duplicate Claptons cream tone with modern materials

Postby parkhead on Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:30 pm

Peteyvee wrote:Sounds pretty close to me, even on crappy PC speakers. Those pickups are the schnizzle! What are they wound to?


It has very little to do with the windings.

its Wades latest short A2 vintage spec magnet. The pickups would sound better with fewer windings.
the short A2 has a more buttery attack and more "stuff" going on as the note fades
the PUP's are very very close to real PAF's but the "PAF's" always edge out with extra harmonics popping out as the last bit of the note decays
Wades pickups are louder than the real Paf's so I've ordered the next set with fewer windings, hopefully this reveals the extra harmonics

The use of metals and how the pickup decays is the PAF magic and anyone who says they can't hear it in a real PAF is probably listening to a
fake, rewind or otherwise defective PAF. There was a magazine shootout years ago where several repros sounded better than the sample PAF.
IMHO the magazine had a FAKE paf for their "control"

When playing real PAF's at volume and fairly clean ... it should be crushingly obvious that this is the sound of the allman brothers ACDC and all of those folks
the things sustain like crazy & make everything else sound BROKEN, DANGER its actually depressing at first


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Re: Can you duplicate Claptons cream tone with modern materials

Postby Peteyvee on Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:36 pm

parkhead wrote:
Peteyvee wrote:Sounds pretty close to me, even on crappy PC speakers. Those pickups are the schnizzle! What are they wound to?


It has very little to do with the windings.

its Wades latest short A2 vintage spec magnet. The pickups would sound better with fewer windings.
the short A2 has a more buttery attack and more "stuff" going on as the note fades
the PUP's are very very close to real PAF's but the "PAF's" always edge out with extra harmonics popping out as the last bit of the note decays
Wades pickups are louder than the real Paf's so I've ordered the next set with fewer windings, hopefully this reveals the extra harmonics

The use of metals and how the pickup decays is the PAF magic and anyone who says they can't hear it in a real PAF is probably listening to a
fake, rewind or otherwise defective PAF. There was a magazine shootout years ago where several repros sounded better than the sample PAF.
IMHO the magazine had a FAKE paf for their "control"

When playing real PAF's at volume and fairly clean ... it should be crushingly obvious that this is the sound of the allman brothers ACDC and all of those folks
the things sustain like crazy & make everything else sound BROKEN, DANGER its actually depressing at first


p

Forgive me if this sounds arrogant, but I know how real PAF's sound. I've been playing guitar since the 60's. Let me rephrase the question: What impedance are they? Thank you.
"The problem with kids today is that their hair's too short and their music isn't loud enough." -Peteyvee
"It's not the notes you play, it's the notes you don't play." -Miles Davis
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Re: Can you duplicate Claptons cream tone with modern materials

Postby parkhead on Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:08 am

around 7.7 and 8.2 but I could be wrong

not to sound Ignorant but wade has wound me seven sets to this general spec
and indeed these have the mojo

his only note on the enclosed bill was
absolutely no wax
and
"A2 official set"

whatever that means

for the record I immediately ordered two more "A2 official sets" two days after I got these



p
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Re: Can you duplicate Claptons cream tone with modern materials

Postby Peteyvee on Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:52 pm

parkhead wrote:around 7.7 and 8.2 but I could be wrong

not to sound Ignorant but wade has wound me seven sets to this general spec
and indeed these have the mojo

his only note on the enclosed bill was
absolutely no wax
and
"A2 official set"

whatever that means

for the record I immediately ordered two more "A2 official sets" two days after I got these



p


Perfect. I think I'll try some out. No wax is always a good thing! I'll shoot him an email. Thanks.
"The problem with kids today is that their hair's too short and their music isn't loud enough." -Peteyvee
"It's not the notes you play, it's the notes you don't play." -Miles Davis
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Re: Can you duplicate Claptons cream tone with modern materials

Postby parkhead on Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:47 pm

lets not forget its all in the Fingers "wink wink"
and really good pickups and a tweaked "jtm 45" have nothing to do with it


p
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Re: Can you duplicate Claptons cream tone with modern materials

Postby Peteyvee on Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:50 pm

parkhead wrote:lets not forget its all in the Fingers "wink wink"
and really good pickups and a tweaked "jtm 45" have nothing to do with it


p


I'd be the first one to agree with that. But great pickups in a great guitar with a tweaked JTM 45 help quite a bit with "hittin' the note"... :wink: Thanks again...
"The problem with kids today is that their hair's too short and their music isn't loud enough." -Peteyvee
"It's not the notes you play, it's the notes you don't play." -Miles Davis
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