Found my road-dog pre-CBS Strat at the Dallas Show

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Re: Found my road-dog pre-CBS Strat at the Dallas Show

Postby 57lpjr on Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:09 pm

I've always liked Shoreline Gold, Daphne Blue and Fiesta Red for Strats w/Rosewood fingerboards!!!

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Re: Found my road-dog pre-CBS Strat at the Dallas Show

Postby jcs on Sun May 01, 2011 7:53 am

My Tokai AST 62 has a Dakota Red finish, less orange than Fiesta.

Personally i wouldnt be in a hurry to refin the guitar, maybe sand it down lightly with 2000 grit and buff it out for now.
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Re: Found my road-dog pre-CBS Strat at the Dallas Show

Postby steveokla on Sun May 01, 2011 2:30 pm

jcs wrote:My Tokai AST 62 has a Dakota Red finish, less orange than Fiesta.

Personally i wouldnt be in a hurry to refin the guitar, maybe sand it down lightly with 2000 grit and buff it out for now.

Hmmmm. Definitely worth thinking about
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Re: Found my road-dog pre-CBS Strat at the Dallas Show

Postby jcs on Sun May 01, 2011 10:27 pm

What is the original color on your new pre-CBS Strat Steve?

To me a refin is something that is not necessary (in terms of playability/tone)...i havent refinned my 65 SG Special for this reason plus i dont want to be without the guitar!
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Re: Found my road-dog pre-CBS Strat at the Dallas Show

Postby Strat59 on Sun May 29, 2011 10:26 am

Nice score Steve :thumbsup: Can I ask your opinion of the Mid 60's Strats. Most feel they are less desirable than early '60s , but being a lefty it's nigh
impossible to find early '60s Left Handed examples , and at a sane price.

I ask because I have found a totally stock in great condition & sounding Nov '65 L - Series (would Nov still retain an L - Series neck plate ? ). Lovely Brazilian Cap fingerboard.

*** also what would be a fair price for a Stock '65 with Orig Case - Lefty ?? ..... ball park figure :cheers:
"Blues players don't mess around with a guitar, they hit the bloody thing"........ Rory Gallagher
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Re: Found my road-dog pre-CBS Strat at the Dallas Show

Postby steveokla on Sun May 29, 2011 1:53 pm

Strat59 wrote:Nice score Steve :thumbsup: Can I ask your opinion of the Mid 60's Strats. Most feel they are less desirable than early '60s , but being a lefty it's nigh
impossible to find early '60s Left Handed examples , and at a sane price.

I ask because I have found a totally stock in great condition & sounding Nov '65 L - Series (would Nov still retain an L - Series neck plate ? ). Lovely Brazilian Cap fingerboard.

*** also what would be a fair price for a Stock '65 with Orig Case - Lefty ?? ..... ball park figure :cheers:

Ok, I should preface my comments by saying that I have limited expertise on the technical specs, year-by-year changes, etc. My remarks are based largely on personal preferences and modest experience picking up and handling strats--my own, those of others, and those I've fooled with at guitar shows. With those qualifications, here goes:

I've played a few pre-CBS strats--'62's, '64's, '65's and a few '59's and '58's. The refin I happened on was built early in '64, so it's functionally a '63, which, near is I can tell, is functionally a '62: black bottom pups, green guard, spaghetti logo, clay dots, single line Klusons. This one, and the other '64's I've played, all feel and sound like '62's to me. From a player's perspective (this player, I should say), these years are fungible.

Near as I can tell, late '64's and early '65's are strikingly similar. I think the prototype '65 which represents some departure from the '64 would include a three-ply white guard, transition logo, F tuners, F plate, yellow cloth wires, grey bottoms, pearl dots and large peghead. It sounds as if the one you're looking at is a transition example--more like a late '64 if it's an L series. Does it have the large or small peghead? I'm guessing double line Klusons and pearl dots? It's possible, I would think, it's still got BB pups.

Stuff like the F versus L plate, pearl dots, logo, guard and, for the most part, peghead size are matters for the collector and have no bearing on my impressions based on in hand comparisons. Things that I focused on, and which impact my overall impression, are body contour, neck contour and pickups. I know the strat bodies became systematically a little less contoured over the years, starting, I think, in the early '60's. However that may be, frankly, I never noticed the difference when I've picked up and played strats from various years. It's been a non-factor for me. What is huge from my perspective is weight--I really dislike a heavy guitar: 7 1/2 pounds is my limit. The grey bottom pups certainly sound different from the BB's to my ear. That was the biggest incentive to get a pre-CBS strat--I wanted something with BB pups. I did not want them, mind you, because I think they sound 'better', a relative and patently subjective term. Rather, I wanted them because they would sound different from the GB's, giving me an additional tone palette and tone versatility. The BB's sound a little chunkier to me and do have a slightly different character, which is what I was after.

The mid '60's strats I have played seem to have had a flatter neck profile than the '64's and earlier. With a transition '65, such as that you're considering, that may not be so. My preference is for a rounder profile, but that's just a matter of what's comfortable in your hand. Lot's of folks prefer the flatter, slightly thinner feel--strictly a matter of personal comfort and taste. Now, I haven't read anything that talks about a change in neck profiles after '67, but I can tell you that the '68's, '69's, and one '70 strat I've played have had a rounder, chunkier neck more akin to the '64 I've got.

That said, based on my impressions of the strats I've played, I wouldn't hesitate to buy any '60's strat. I own a stock '68 that is an astounding player, post CBS or not. The fit and finish are terrific and it sounds magnificent. I've played '69's every bit as good. My only complaint with them is the poly finish on the back of the neck, which never seems to wear off and, to my hand, has a kind of drag to it. Without that, I'd buy a nice '69 in a heartbeat at the right price. The '65's and '66's I've played have been excellent, though, again, I prefer the rounder neck contour of the '62--'64.

At least from my own amateur inspection, the quality of the mid sixties strats I've handled in terms of fit, finish, feel, etc., was every bit as good as the earlier stuff I've played. They had that same unmistakable solid feel of a super built instrument. I rather prefer Klusons to F tuners, but, then again, I have F tuners on my '68, of course, and they've never given me a problem and I play this guitar a lot.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy one for an instant. From the collector's perspective, I would think the fact that the one you're looking at is a transition example would add to its value.

As to prices, the market seems volatile and hard to evaluate. I always begin with the Vintage Guide, but, in my experience, it provides only a course beginning point. Next, I tend to check GBase, but my working assumption is that a GBase price represents the market plus about a third more--the stuff is, in my view, way overpriced. Still, like the Vintage Guide, it gives me some info. Next, it's Ebay. Say what you will, I think Ebay gives a pretty realistic and accurate picture of prices. Whatever the Vintage Guide says, whatever price a GBase dealer is asking, I think an instrument is basically worth what you can get on Ebay--not what you ask on Ebay, but what you can actually realize from an auction there.

Last time I checked Gbase, dealers were asking upwards of $10K (mostly more than that, and, for things like custom colors, much more) for dead straight '65 and '66 strats. Refins there seem to be in the $7-to-$8 thousand range, depending on originality of stuff besides the paint. I saw a real clean, all original example go recently at $15K on Ebay, and one with issues--some extra holes, replaced tuners, one replaced pup--go at close to $7K.

As a lefty, you might have a real advantage. I'm guessing here, but I would assume a left handed guitar is just harder to sell owing to the small number of left handed players relative to right handed players. I've seen extraordinary vintage strats at prices much lower than their right handed counterparts sit and sit, both at Gbase and on ebay. For a right handed '65, early transition version, I would think anything around $10K or below would be a super price. That suggests you might be able to get this guitar--a left handed version--at even less.

If I were at a guitar show, for instance, was a lefty and saw this guitar as you describe it, I'd wait around 'till the end o the day Sunday when everyone's packing and try to steal it at, say, $8K, maybe less. Don't know that I'd get it for that, but I think that's how I'd go about it. That's how I got my '64 and my '68. Good luck, and let me know how it goes. Best, Steve
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Re: Found my road-dog pre-CBS Strat at the Dallas Show

Postby Pacafeliz on Sun May 29, 2011 8:31 pm

congrats, i'm SO happy for you... you really took quite a while to find THE right one! :D

re: refin
i wouldn't do it - or, we need to see more close-up pics of the refin, what is it that doesn't make you happy?

anyways, there's ONE guy i'd recommend. he does 1:1 original spec and the most wonderful (really accurate, NOT over-done as all the others) relics:
Danocaster
http://www.danocaster.com/

i'll have my '63 Bass VI sent to him soon. his prices are quite decent, and his work... well check out his website!

good luck!

Pat.
oaklandanny too wrote:Pat...
This is way late in posting... but I want to say that she's beautiful, man!!! You are blessed and the world will be a better place because of your little girl. Mark my words... She will live in a better world than we live in now... because she will help change it. God bless!!!!

RIP OaklandDanny, thanks for EVERYTHING! God bless you, always!
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Re: Found my road-dog pre-CBS Strat at the Dallas Show

Postby Strat59 on Mon May 30, 2011 9:22 am

Thanks Steve , many thanks for such a detailed and expansive response. Really helps. :thumbsup:

The guitar in question is with a well known respected CA Dealer . Its overall condition is .... 8/10 with Orig Case. Few dings and scratches. All stock.
It is an L plate , with double line klusons , and GB pups. Small headstock with post spagetti logo . They had a you tube video of it being played , then I spotted the date it was posted..... Early 2010. So the guitar has been with them for a year. As you say , the lefties are harder to move obviously as they have found. It is also a hardtail , not an issue for me. But the asking price is $21,500 :shock: There are a few others on Gbase in pristine condition but they want a similar price with F plates. I asked the manager twice are they negotiable on price but got no reply. With a guitar that has sat for 12 mnths in the store you would think they would be keen to do a deal. I would assume they would not have paid anywhere close to that price when they got it, most likely at guitar show , which this dealer does attend and buy at. Might be just a case of making an offer of what we assume the correct market price is and leave it at that , take it or leave it. Rather than pay their asking (or near to) price.

As you say , most 60's Strats are great guitars , and this one is very well put together , neck fit is superb. The brief sample on you tube sounded great. But why they drench the sound with reverb when demoing a guitar I don't know ? ...... it is to make the guitar sound better in the video ??

Will keep you updated with the deal. :cheers:
"Blues players don't mess around with a guitar, they hit the bloody thing"........ Rory Gallagher
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Re: Found my road-dog pre-CBS Strat at the Dallas Show

Postby steveokla on Mon May 30, 2011 3:53 pm

This sounds like a spectacular guitar. That said, I think you can find one like it for considerably less, even on Gbase. I took a quick look there, and there are pre-CBS strats at well below that figure. I don't believe for a minute your dealer will get anywhere near that kind of money in the current market--there's a reason it's been idle since 2010.

First thing I'd do is try to get to a couple guitar shows--see what's there in the year range that interests you, play what's available until you find a couple that really grab you, and start haggling near the end (real near) of the show when people are packing up to go. I've found dealers will really bend over backwards to unload stuff to keep from hauling back to their shops--there are some terrific deals to be had.

Otherwise, of course, there's ebay--to me, the real index for what a guitar will bring.

If you go to Gbase, Jay Rosen has an original '63 right now at $14, 850, I believe. Got some wear, but the good, player's kind. I also happen to know Jay will deal. I just bought a '66 Tele from him--instantly came down 15 plus per cent off his asking. I might have done even better, but I dislike haggling and simply offered him the amount I was comfortable with. Jay, and the other reputable dealers on Gbase, always give you an approval period.

Again, I think you can do better. I've got a good friend in Atlanta who's a dealer. If you like, I can have him check around for a strat--let me know your specific preferences if you want me to visit with him. Steve
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Re: Found my road-dog pre-CBS Strat at the Dallas Show

Postby Strat59 on Tue May 31, 2011 12:28 am

Thanks Steve, :thumbsup:

Jay has some nice stuff , but I'm a Lefty so need something in a L/H version. They are scarce , a couple of Dealers on Gbase have one , but expensive in nice minty condition , but Strats being Strats , I don't know which dealer to trust. Heard some horror stories about buyers shelling out $30,000 + for what turned out to be not what they thought (or were told) it was. Need a reputable dealer. Would appreciate the help. Basically anything Stock or close to
from .... '63 to '65 (L-Series). Left Hand. I actually had a reply today from the manager of the store concerned and he said Definitely they would deal , for me to make an offer and he would see if he could make it happen. Sounds promising. I will work out a fair price for all concerned and put it forward.
They are very reputable dealers and he did send me lots of High Def photos of the complete guitar , Body Cavity , pups , so it is the real deal. Screws are correct etc etc. Being a lefty is frustrating from that point of view , as right handers have a lot to choose from at much better prices. I could always do a Jimi and flip it , but it never felt quite right to me that way. I do agree the GB pups do sound different. More top end, hard to describe , but I can definitely hear the difference. Not in a bad way , just different as you said. To me they seem to match the sound of the B.F. Amps
of that period. I read a shootout in a British Guitar Mag from some guys who all owned Re-fin '60s & late '50s Strats. The consensus was, and also from their experience past , that Early 60s to '63/4 Strats do sound dark and thick in tone. Some also had changed parts , rewound pups etc , but All agreed that the complexity of tone was not effected by the refin , and that all guitars were superior in tone to anything currently made today inc C/Shop. One guy had vast experience as a repair guy and he said that all current Strats sounded to him - one dimensional. He said the old guitars had a complexity of tone but he could not put his finger on why exactly. They tended to put it all down to the wood from that era.
"Blues players don't mess around with a guitar, they hit the bloody thing"........ Rory Gallagher
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Re: Found my road-dog pre-CBS Strat at the Dallas Show

Postby steveokla on Tue May 31, 2011 9:33 pm

Had a brain thing-completely forgot that you're a lefty. I'll by talking to my guy tomorrow afternoon and I'll ask if he can help. Steve
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Re: Found my road-dog pre-CBS Strat at the Dallas Show

Postby Strat59 on Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:45 am

steveokla wrote:Had a brain thing-completely forgot that you're a lefty. I'll by talking to my guy tomorrow afternoon and I'll ask if he can help. Steve



Thanks Steve. There are some nice Strats on ebay (R/H) at the moment. A seller , 59Flametop has a couple of beauties , '63 & '64 Sunbusts in minty condition. Priced close to the asking price of the lefty , but in much better cosmetic condition and earlier models. So it's hard to determine what to offer on the Lefty based on the Asking Price or Offer with the other two R/H models. No takers on them at the moment so a Lefty would be even harder to sell you would think.

*** There is an unusual object in the Neck pocket of the second Strat. A wedge ? of some sort........... By the paint stuck to the neck plates both necks are orig to the guitar.

Based on the other two allowing for then being Right Handed , Earlier Models/features , 9/10 Condition ........ The Lefty would only be worth ? $15K to
$17,000 ??? Max.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWAX:IT

http://cgi.ebay.com/Near-Mint-1963-Fend ... 3367a8773f
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