Selmer Bassmaster

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Selmer Bassmaster

Postby jonr on Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:59 am

Hi

I have a recently restored (essentally rebuilt) Bassmaster top, the 30W model I think (it just says Truvoice Bassmaster on the front). The attached pic shows how it looked when I bought it, around 30 years ago - clearly at least one careless previous owner. The restoration only touched the innards.

Couple of questions:

1. What cab, or speaker set-up would you recommend? I have an old unmounted Goodmans 18" Audiom speaker (currently needs reconing) - would that do? I'll be using it for guitar, primarily. (The amp sounded great when tested through a 4x12 at the repair shop, but I'd prefer a smaller cab, simply for practical purposes.)

2. The power light blinks. The repair shop thought it odd, but assured me it must be intentional. The amp worked fine otherwise. I understand some other Selmer amps had a "blinking eye" feature, but associated with the tremelo? There's no tremelo on this one. The light comes on when switched on, but then begins blinking, and after a few seconds settles down to a regular pattern of being off for fully 4 or 5 seconds, then flashing on for maybe half a second. Should I take it back to the shop?? (The restoration cost a fortune.)
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Re: Selmer Bassmaster

Postby stratele52 on Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:05 pm

jonr wrote:Hi

I have a recently restored (essentally rebuilt) Bassmaster top, the 30W model I think (it just says Truvoice Bassmaster on the front). The attached pic shows how it looked when I bought it, around 30 years ago - clearly at least one careless previous owner. The restoration only touched the innards.

Couple of questions:

1. What cab, or speaker set-up would you recommend? I have an old unmounted Goodmans 18" Audiom speaker (currently needs reconing) - would that do? I'll be using it for guitar, primarily. (The amp sounded great when tested through a 4x12 at the repair shop, but I'd prefer a smaller cab, simply for practical purposes.)

Nobody use a 18 inches today, better to buy a 12 inches than pay to recone the 18 inches. What is the output impedance of the output transfomer ?


2. The power light blinks.
If it is a neon bulb ( it look to me ) it is normal the blinking when old, the amp is OK. If you are tired to see it blinking , put a new one.

The repair shop thought it odd, but assured me it must be intentional. The amp worked fine otherwise. I understand some other Selmer amps had a "blinking eye" feature, but associated with the tremelo? There's no tremelo on this one. The light comes on when switched on, but then begins blinking, and after a few seconds settles down to a regular pattern of being off for fully 4 or 5 seconds, then flashing on for maybe half a second. Should I take it back to the shop??
Ask to the shop what they think about that


(The restoration cost a fortune.)
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Re: Selmer Bassmaster

Postby stratele52 on Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:12 pm

http://el34world.com/charts/Schematics/ ... er_50w.pdf

Schematic show it is a neon pilot light. blinking is normal if old. Neon lamp is few dollars if in the shelf and "standard"
It look not expensive, i could be wrong too;
http://www.chambonino.com/work/selmer/selm7.html


Speakers; Two in parallel, could be a 4 ohms output transformer.
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Re: Selmer Bassmaster

Postby pdf64 on Sat Mar 05, 2016 11:17 pm

The schematic seems to indicates 7.5 and 15 ohm secondary taps on the OT; that matches up with my Selmer T&B.
There's a vast selection of speakers available.
The Celestion G12T75 could cope with the amp on its own as a 1x12, or even more grunt as a 2x12.
They should be readily available for a reasonable price secondhand.
Then need to decide open or closed back cab....
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Re: Selmer Bassmaster

Postby jonr on Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:21 am

Thanks all, very useful info. Just to reply to specific points, and clarify for myself:

1. I don't much care if "nobody uses 18" today" :). But if it's cheaper to buy a new 12" than repair the 18" (and it seems it is) then that makes sense!
But hypothetically let's say I like the idea of the 18" ;)... I just noticed a label on it that says 15 ohms.
Assuming the amp would be OK with that, can you explain what would be the difference in terms of sound or volume between that and a 12"? I'm guessing 18" would handle lower frequencies better - I may be using it for bass as well as guitar.
And what difference do different ohm ratings make?

2. "7.5 and 15 ohm secondary taps" on the OT - what exactly does this mean, in terms of what speaker rating should be?
The original amp (or rather the modified 2nd-hand model I had) just had 4 single holes for the speaker output - I used to have to separate the wires of the speaker cable to poke into two of them (I think it only worked with two of them). (I used a 2x12 cab with it, years ago, but no longer have it, unfortunately.) The repairer (on my request) installed a 1/4" jack socket.

3. The shop did notice the flashing light, and of course I asked about it; as I mentioned, they said it was OK, and even (unconvincingly) assured me it must be a cool design feature! At the time I picked it up (and tested it), the guy that did the repair wasn't in (he only works there one day a week). As it had already cost me way more than I anticipated (and they'd had it in the shop for a year!) - and they'd already charged me another £60 to fit the jack socket - so I was in no mood to trust them to do anything else with it. And it sounded fantastic anyway. I reasoned that if it stopped working then I'd take back.
As it is, if it's a simple matter of replacing the bulb, no problem - assuming I can find one that will fit. Would it work (or cause any problem) without the bulb at all? (I don't mind the flashing, but it may be disconcerting on stage for others in the band...)

4. Can you explain the difference between open and closed back cab? I know in simple terms! I mean in terms of tonal response and volume.
I'd prefer the smallest cab that's practical, if that helps, and I'm unlikely to be using this amp at extreme volumes. OTOH, I may be building the cab myself, and would like it simple.
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Re: Selmer Bassmaster

Postby stratele52 on Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:07 am

jonr wrote:Thanks all, very useful info. Just to reply to specific points, and clarify for myself:

1. I don't much care if "nobody uses 18" today" :). But if it's cheaper to buy a new 12" than repair the 18" (and it seems it is) then that makes sense!
But hypothetically let's say I like the idea of the 18" ;)... I just noticed a label on it that says 15 ohms.
Assuming the amp would be OK with that, can you explain what would be the difference in terms of sound or volume between that and a 12"? I'm guessing 18" would handle lower frequencies better - I may be using it for bass as well as guitar.
And what difference do different ohm ratings make?
I understand why you say you don't care if "nobody use 18 "today" . You have to learn a lot about speaker. Everybody have to start here one day. Short answer; 18 inches sound poor.



2. "7.5 and 15 ohm secondary taps" on the OT - what exactly does this mean, in terms of what speaker rating should be?
The original amp (or rather the modified 2nd-hand model I had) just had 4 single holes for the speaker output - I used to have to separate the wires of the speaker cable to poke into two of them (I think it only worked with two of them). (I used a 2x12 cab with it, years ago, but no longer have it, unfortunately.) The repairer (on my request) installed a 1/4" jack socket.
You can use a 8 ohms speaker on 7.5 ohms taps or a 16 ohms speaker on 15 ohms taps. It is up to you.


3. The shop did notice the flashing light, and of course I asked about it; as I mentioned, they said it was OK, and even (unconvincingly) assured me it must be a cool design feature!
He is joking ? It is not a cool feature it is a tired neon light and can glow many years more. It is up to you.

At the time I picked it up (and tested it), the guy that did the repair wasn't in (he only works there one day a week). As it had already cost me way more than I anticipated (and they'd had it in the shop for a year!) - and they'd already charged me another £60 to fit the jack socket - so I was in no mood to trust them to do anything else with it. And it sounded fantastic anyway. I reasoned that if it stopped working then I'd take back.
As it is, if it's a simple matter of replacing the bulb, no problem - assuming I can find one that will fit. Would it work (or cause any problem) without the bulb at all? (I don't mind the flashing, but it may be disconcerting on stage for others in the band...) Not , forget the bulb if you like it, amp do not need this bulb to work . But just say amp is on.

4. Can you explain the difference between open and closed back cab? I know in simple terms! I mean in terms of tonal response and volume. Google
I'd prefer the smallest cab that's practical, if that helps, and I'm unlikely to be using this amp at extreme volumes. OTOH, I may be building the cab myself, and would like it simple.
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Re: Selmer Bassmaster

Postby pdf64 on Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:15 pm

jonr wrote:. I just noticed a label on it that says 15 ohms...can you explain what would be the difference in terms of sound or volume between that and a 12"? I'm guessing 18" would handle lower frequencies better - I may be using it for bass as well as guitar.
And what difference do different ohm ratings make?

Generally the larger the speaker cone, the more bass and the less treble it will put out, and the louder it will be.
An 18" speaker is unlikely to put out enough treble for most guitarists.
See http://celestion.com/speakerworld/guita ... e_Matter?/ for further info.
The impedance rating of a speaker, in itself, has no noticeable affect on its output.
So an 8 ohm eg G12T75 connected to your amp's 7.5 ohm output will sound the same as a 16 ohm G12T75 connected to the 15 ohm output.
Be aware not to use both 7.5 and 15 ohm outputs at the same time.
The amp must not be operated without a suitable load.

jonr wrote:2. "7.5 and 15 ohm secondary taps" on the OT - what exactly does this mean, in terms of what speaker rating should be?
The original amp (or rather the modified 2nd-hand model I had) just had 4 single holes for the speaker output - I used to have to separate the wires of the speaker cable to poke into two of them (I think it only worked with two of them). (I used a 2x12 cab with it, years ago, but no longer have it, unfortunately.) The repairer (on my request) installed a 1/4" jack socket.

A (functional) 15 ohm speaker (used on its own) would present a suitable load for the amp's 15 ohm output.
An 8 ohm speaker, when used on its own, would present a suitable load for the amp's 7.5 ohm output.
The power rating of the load should be greater than the amp's maximum power output; a 75 watt speaker should give a good level of reliability with high power use.
If a 50 watt or lower rated load is used, it may be damaged by high power use. Speaker failure may damage the amp.

What is the 'original amp'? The text following that is very confusing; if it is referring to your Selmer, please explain it in greater detail.

jonr wrote:3. The shop did notice the flashing light, and of course I asked about it; as I mentioned, they said it was OK, and even (unconvincingly) assured me it must be a cool design feature! At the time I picked it up (and tested it), the guy that did the repair wasn't in (he only works there one day a week). As it had already cost me way more than I anticipated (and they'd had it in the shop for a year!) - and they'd already charged me another £60 to fit the jack socket - so I was in no mood to trust them to do anything else with it. And it sounded fantastic anyway. I reasoned that if it stopped working then I'd take back.
As it is, if it's a simple matter of replacing the bulb, no problem - assuming I can find one that will fit. Would it work (or cause any problem) without the bulb at all? (I don't mind the flashing, but it may be disconcerting on stage for others in the band...)


The failing (flashing) neon power indicator is not replaceable by the user; it is soldered in place.
If you're not happy that the amp was returned to you like that, it would be best for you to take that up with the repairer ASAP.
However, I think it unlikely that anyone would be bothered by it.

jonr wrote:4. Can you explain the difference between open and closed back cab? I know in simple terms! I mean in terms of tonal response and volume.
I'd prefer the smallest cab that's practical, if that helps, and I'm unlikely to be using this amp at extreme volumes. OTOH, I may be building the cab myself, and would like it simple.

Generally, for guitar use, open and closed back cabs will provide roughly the same volume but will sound different; 1st hand experience is best, so consider visiting a big guitar shop, they may even have combo and head/cab versions of the same amp model.

Otherwise, see http://celestion.com/speakerworld/news/ ... _for_Me?_/

However, for bass use, open back cabs are very unlikely to be suitable.
A large closed back cab and speaker with heavyweight magnet 50oz would be far preferable.
For sufficient volume to match a loud drummer, the cab will require 2 or more speakers; this will increase the cab's power handling and alter the impedance, compared to use with a single speaker, see http://celestion.com/speakerworld/guita ... gurations/
My band:-http://www.youtube.com/user/RedwingBand
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Re: Selmer Bassmaster

Postby jonr on Tue Mar 08, 2016 4:26 pm

pdf64 wrote:
jonr wrote:. I just noticed a label on it that says 15 ohms...can you explain what would be the difference in terms of sound or volume between that and a 12"? I'm guessing 18" would handle lower frequencies better - I may be using it for bass as well as guitar.
And what difference do different ohm ratings make?

Generally the larger the speaker cone, the more bass and the less treble it will put out, and the louder it will be.
An 18" speaker is unlikely to put out enough treble for most guitarists.
Maybe I'm not "most guitarists"... ;).
The 18" sounds great to me at the moment, provided I don't turn up enough for the farty sound to kick in. (I tried it at very low volume as an extension speaker to one of my other amps, just to check if it was working or not - it was given to me years ago and I'd had it in storage. It didn't take much realise it was blown.) But I take your point.
pdf64 wrote:The impedance rating of a speaker, in itself, has no noticeable affect on its output.
So an 8 ohm eg G12T75 connected to your amp's 7.5 ohm output will sound the same as a 16 ohm G12T75 connected to the 15 ohm output.
Be aware not to use both 7.5 and 15 ohm outputs at the same time.
No danger of that, now I only have one output (the new 1/4" jack). How can I determine whether that's 7.5 or 15?
pdf64 wrote:The amp must not be operated without a suitable load.
That's partly why I'm asking. How do you define suitable load?
pdf64 wrote:
jonr wrote:2. "7.5 and 15 ohm secondary taps" on the OT - what exactly does this mean, in terms of what speaker rating should be?
The original amp (or rather the modified 2nd-hand model I had) just had 4 single holes for the speaker output - I used to have to separate the wires of the speaker cable to poke into two of them (I think it only worked with two of them). (I used a 2x12 cab with it, years ago, but no longer have it, unfortunately.) The repairer (on my request) installed a 1/4" jack socket.

A (functional) 15 ohm speaker (used on its own) would present a suitable load for the amp's 15 ohm output.
An 8 ohm speaker, when used on its own, would present a suitable load for the amp's 7.5 ohm output.
The power rating of the load should be greater than the amp's maximum power output; a 75 watt speaker should give a good level of reliability with high power use.
If a 50 watt or lower rated load is used, it may be damaged by high power use. Speaker failure may damage the amp.
The 18" is rated 100 watts, the amp is 30, and of course I wouldn't use the speaker until it's repaired (if I decide to go with that one).
But I'm still a little confused about power and impedance. If my speaker output is 7.5, would it damage the amp (or the speaker) to use a 15 ohm speaker? Or vice versa? Or would it just affect the level or quality of sound?
pdf64 wrote:What is the 'original amp'? The text following that is very confusing; if it is referring to your Selmer, please explain it in greater detail.
Good question! It kind of has two answers, if you can bear with me. This is a pic of an original model:
Image
The control panel is same as mine, the box it's in is the same shape and size, but looks totally different. It's covered in black painted fabric (not textured), with a central "selmer" logo that is definitely not original (may even be home-made by the previous owner!). The knobs were also painted black. The plastic red dome over the power light is a lot bigger on mine (ie the chrome fitting is also larger). The back panel of the amp was (and still is) a piece of black painted pegboard. FWIW, the handle on the top, and the vents, look original.
The speaker outs were four separate holes - which I assume are two pairs for the 7.5 and 15 ohm outputs you mention, although they are not marked in any way. (I remember using one pair of these when I was using the amp when I first owned it.)
Like that speaker, the amp had been in storage for years, and was not working at all when I tried it a year or so ago. I was getting another Selmer repaired (a 2x12 Selectatone, in better condition), and thought I might as well get this one looked at at the same time. I was half expecting to be told it wasn't worth it. They went ahead with it without giving me any report on its condition, or any kind of estimate. (If they'd told me how much it would cost in the end, I'd have said forget it. But actually it sounds so good I'm rather glad they didn't tell me.)
The overhaul resulted in what I was told was a total "rebuild", although the externals were not touched at all. I had to ask for the jack socket to be put in, seeing as I don't have a lead with banana plugs (of course it would have been cheaper for me to just get a couple of those).
pdf64 wrote:The failing (flashing) neon power indicator is not replaceable by the user; it is soldered in place.
If you're not happy that the amp was returned to you like that, it would be best for you to take that up with the repairer ASAP.
However, I think it unlikely that anyone would be bothered by it.
Well, I rather sheepishly accepted it at the time, and I'm happy to put up with it. I was only concerned in case it was a sign of some other problem.
pdf64 wrote:
jonr wrote:4. Can you explain the difference between open and closed back cab? I know in simple terms! I mean in terms of tonal response and volume.
I'd prefer the smallest cab that's practical, if that helps, and I'm unlikely to be using this amp at extreme volumes. OTOH, I may be building the cab myself, and would like it simple.

Generally, for guitar use, open and closed back cabs will provide roughly the same volume but will sound different; 1st hand experience is best, so consider visiting a big guitar shop, they may even have combo and head/cab versions of the same amp model.

Otherwise, see http://celestion.com/speakerworld/news/ ... _for_Me?_/

However, for bass use, open back cabs are very unlikely to be suitable.
A large closed back cab and speaker with heavyweight magnet 50oz would be far preferable.
For sufficient volume to match a loud drummer, the cab will require 2 or more speakers; this will increase the cab's power handling and alter the impedance, compared to use with a single speaker, see http://celestion.com/speakerworld/guita ... gurations/
Thanks for all that. Very helpful.
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Re: Selmer Bassmaster

Postby pdf64 on Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:43 pm

jonr wrote:The 18" sounds great to me at the moment, provided I don't turn up enough for the farty sound to kick in. (I tried it at very low volume

Yes, it may sound fine at low volumes, however in a band context it may not be able to put out sufficient treble to cut through enough for guitar use.

jonr wrote:I only have one output (the new 1/4" jack). How can I determine whether that's 7.5 or 15?

You will have to ask the tech that fitted it; it seems strange that the tech did not make both options available.
Perhaps the transformer is a replacement which only has one output impedance.
Whatever, it is important to know what impedance that is.

jonr wrote:How do you define suitable load?

The load impedance should be the same / very close to the amp output used, eg 8 ohm load on 7.5 ohm output, and the load's power rating should be greater than the amp's rated output power.
That applies to use at loud sound levels, eg in a band context.
In a domestic context at lower sound levels (eg someone watching tv in next room) they can be relaxed.

The use (at high power levels) of a load impedance that does not match the amp's intended output will reduce the power that the amp can put out, overheat the output valves (causing them to wear out more quickly), and increase the likelihood of damage to the amp, either by a power valve shorting out (due to the additional heat), or by high voltages causing insulation to break down.

You may see a guideline on the internet that it is permissible to mis-match the load impedance on a tube amp by one step, eg to use an 8 ohm load on a 15 ohm amp output.
I suspect that guideline came about from Fender amps, which tended to use a different type of power valve (beam tetrodes) rather than the pentodes (eg EL34) that tend to be used in UK amps.
With pentode amps, it is beneficial to ensure that the load impedance matches the amp's intended load impedance.
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Re: Selmer Bassmaster

Postby jonr on Fri Mar 11, 2016 2:49 pm

Sorry not to reply sooner, and thanks again for informative advice,
pdf64 wrote:
jonr wrote:I only have one output (the new 1/4" jack). How can I determine whether that's 7.5 or 15?

You will have to ask the tech that fitted it; it seems strange that the tech did not make both options available.
The original four single-pole outputs are still available. (I say "original" - I mean they were there when I bought the amp second-hand, when it had already been messed around with by a previous owner. They are not marked in any way, except that one has a circle scratched around it, and my memory is that that was the positive pole of the pair I used at that time.)
Asking the tech presents a problem, as he was never easy to get hold of, even on the one day a week he was supposed to be working there. (Although I guess if I do get hold of him, I can ask about that flashing light...)
Is there no way I can find out myself? By taking measurements, or by examining the circuitry? (Obviously I don't know much about electronics, but I have re-wired a guitar before and have a multimeter.)
pdf64 wrote:Perhaps the transformer is a replacement which only has one output impedance.
There are three things in there that look to me like transformers, and they all look original, judging by the dust and grime adhering to them :).
pdf64 wrote:
jonr wrote:How do you define suitable load?

The load impedance should be the same / very close to the amp output used, eg 8 ohm load on 7.5 ohm output, and the load's power rating should be greater than the amp's rated output power.
That applies to use at loud sound levels, eg in a band context.
In a domestic context at lower sound levels (eg someone watching tv in next room) they can be relaxed.

The use (at high power levels) of a load impedance that does not match the amp's intended output will reduce the power that the amp can put out, overheat the output valves (causing them to wear out more quickly), and increase the likelihood of damage to the amp, either by a power valve shorting out (due to the additional heat), or by high voltages causing insulation to break down.
And is that the same whichever way the mismatch is?
pdf64 wrote:You may see a guideline on the internet that it is permissible to mis-match the load impedance on a tube amp by one step, eg to use an 8 ohm load on a 15 ohm amp output.
I suspect that guideline came about from Fender amps, which tended to use a different type of power valve (beam tetrodes) rather than the pentodes (eg EL34) that tend to be used in UK amps.
With pentode amps, it is beneficial to ensure that the load impedance matches the amp's intended load impedance.
The large valves are two 6L6EHs and the 4 small ones are 2x ECC83, 1 ECC82, and 1 12AX7EH.
When I tested the amp, the assistant (not the tech himself) set it up with a 4x12 Marshall cab. Is that any guide? (I remember him saying something about 16 ohm being suitable, but I don't know what he based that on, as he had no more idea than me what the tech had actually done.)
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Re: Selmer Bassmaster

Postby pdf64 on Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:13 am

Assessing a transformer's intended impedances is rather involved, and requires perhaps more equipment / a higher level of competence, than you've got; this video seems to cover it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzo3A-NywSs
Hence the tech really needs to tell you.
Different kit and methods may be used, but they will all follow the same general principal of feeding a voltage into one winding and measuring the (unloaded) voltage on the other winding.

A mismatched load on the output of a valve amp, either higher or lower impedance, puts more stress on the power tubes; however, the 6L6 fitted (incorrectly) in your amp may cope with a low mismatch ok, ie 8 ohm load on the amp's 15 ohm output, as they're a more robust tube type than the correct EL34.
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Re: Selmer Bassmaster

Postby jonr on Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:09 am

Again, my apologies for not responding sooner.
Very interesting video, and you're quite I'm in no way qualified to check the amp in that way!
I am going to try and get hold of that tech - the more I find out about how both my amps were "fixed", the more suspicious I get about his way of working. I suspect he may not even remember what he did. If he doesn't, or I can't get him, I'll find another qualified person.
Just to confirm for now:
8 ohm load on 15 ohm output - bad, but (given those tubes) possibly OK?
15 ohm load on 8 ohm output - bad (worse?)
I imagine both issues would be exacerbated at high volume, or would be the same at any volume?
In any case I won't be doing anything with it until I know what's coming out that jack.;)
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Re: Selmer Bassmaster

Postby pdf64 on Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:17 pm

jonr wrote:8 ohm load on 15 ohm output - bad, but (given those tubes) possibly OK?
15 ohm load on 8 ohm output - bad (worse?)

On review, it's probably not too bad either way, though a match should give most power output and longest life for the 6L6.
Sorry, I was approaching this with an EL34 head on.

jonr wrote:I imagine both issues would be exacerbated at high volume, or would be the same at any volume?

A mismatched load is only really an issue at high power levels.
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